Well...sabi ko na nga ba. After some head on collision with the Christian faith, it’s time for the Muslim to convince their readers about the existence of Allah.
I don’t know if Ricky here intended this post for the Christians or for the non-believers in this group. Well...in the first place, you’ll notice that proving the existence of Allah is no way different from proving the existence of the Christian god. Have you notice it?
So @ Ricky...this is how an Ilhad (like moi) will answer your alleges.
[Ricky wrote on Mon, 28 April 2008 04:04]Consider this : An archaeologist digs deep into the desert sand and finds a piece of an old clay pot. After his investigations, this archaeologist can tell us, from this little old piece of dusty clay, so much about the civilisation that existed thousands of years ago that produced it; he can tell us about the types of ovens, temperatues, and dyes that they worked with, the raw materials that they used, and thus assess the level of their artistic skill and technological ability, etc. All this from a small piece of clay lying in the desert.
Did this archaeologist ever see the civilisation that produced this pot ?
How does he know that it ever existed ?
He knows because he saw that the piece of clay was produced by someone who designed it, and shaped it, and had the intelligence to be able to heat it and produce the pot, and not only that, they also had the ability to colour it and make it look beautiful.
Design ==> Designer.
To the archaeologist the existence and intricacy of the piece of pottery is conclusive proof of the existence, intelligence and ability of the people who made it.
Look around you: at the beautiful sunset on a summer evening, at the moon and the stars on a cloudless night, at the water that you drink, at the trees and how they grow from tiny seeds.
Think about yourself: your eyes with which you see, your ears with which you hear, your tongues with which you taste and talk, your hands and your feet, your heart and your brain.Consider how these things are so complex in themselves and yet work together in such perfect harmony.
Ah the old “Argument from Design”. Christian apologists have already used this so it’s really not new. I was expecting a more philosophical approached like the Kalam argument of Ibn Hazm. Anyway, as I have always tell my opponents, that the Design argument is really an argument from analogy. The better the analogy, the convincing it become. So you see @ Ricky, we have to look at the analogy if you think your argument is valid.
So base on your post, the analogy is between the pieces of potter’s clay vs. well...natural objects.
So let us look at the analogy.
The piece of clay pot that the archeologist found was created with a pre-existing material – which is...well you guess it...CLAY! While the universe and the human body parts weren’t. In fact, every natural object was not created in pre-existing material. Both really aren’t the same so the analogy is rather weak.
Now we go to the issue of design. When you said “design” well...what is the first thing that enters your head? The word design implies purpose, so that means when Allah created everything, there is a purpose. What’s the purpose? If the purpose of the whole creation myth is for mankind, then the universe doesn’t manifest such purpose. If nature was created for mankind, then we must see any manifestation of a purpose. Yet there isn’t any.
I think there might be a difference between the Christian’s purpose and the Muslim’s purpose. According to Sura 51.56, Allah created humans to serve Him. (I have created the jinn and humankind only that they might serve Me.) Which is quite odd since Allah is supposed to be perfect and all-mighty so why does he need to create being whose sole purpose in the universe is to serve him? Anyway, going back to the topic, may I ask, “What will be the use of creating the planet Jupiter to be a thousand times more massive than planet Earth on the worship of Allah?” For starters...you will not see the wonders of planet Jupiter in Mecca. But that’s just a tip of the ice berg.
If the purpose can’t be established then the design and designer issue falls into pieces.
From the movement of the galaxies to the complexities of the interaction of molecules, from the dynamics of eco-systems to the intricacies of DNA, all lead to the obvious fact of the existence of the great Wisdom, Knowledge and Power that allows our Universe to exist and function.To any perceptive person the existence and intricacy of creation is conclusive proof of the Existence, Knowledge and Wisdom of the One who creates, organises and sustains it.
Ah not really @ Ricky. You see, complexity doesn’t really necessary follow the existence of a great wisdom, knowledge and power. Let me explain.
Have you seen a snow flake? Hmmm I guess not...neither do Mohammad (he lives in the desert). Anyway, if you look at a snow flake under a microscope, you will notice that it forms beautiful intricate patters. Each snow flake design is really unique. As they say, no snow flakes are the same. Yet the pattern of a snow-flake was formed in random. It’s just how carbon dioxide and water reacts with freezing temperature. I guess nature doesn’t need a brain to “create” the snow-flake pattern.
Again, to speak of wisdom and knowledge, there must be “meaning” and “purpose”. So let me ask you again, what wisdom are we going to use if we would try to establish the reason why the universe is immeasurably huge to benefit the sole purpose of human existence according to Sura 51.56?
Most people naturally recognise the existence of the Creator, and we find reference to the Creator in all cultures and religions. Even the atheists, communists and (disbelieving) scientists cannot avoid this reality, but avoid the term 'creator', for phrases like 'Mother Nature' and 'the amazing way nature has designed...
This is an example of an appeal to numbers. Such an appeal really carries little weight in the discussion. Let me explain. Before Copernicus most scholars believe in Ptolemy’s model of the solar system. Well...they believe that the Earth is at the center of the Universe while the Sun, the planets and the stars revolve around it. So why do you think our ancient ancestors believe that planet Earth is in the center of the Universe? Well, because you see the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. You sometimes observe things in a wrong perspective.
So maybe you know where my explanation is going to? Not because “most” people recognized a “creator” prove that such “creator” exist. Does an atheist (I really don’t care what the communists and the disbelieving scientists’ thinks) accept this “reality”? (what reality?) – Ah that most people recognized a certain creator? – To tell you frankly @ Ricky, atheist like me doesn’t recognized any self-profess “creator” of the cosmos. We’re already fine and dandy with a creator-less universe.
The word “nature designed” is really a prosopopoeia @ Ricky. You know a prosopopoeia don’t you? A prosopopoeia is representing an abstract quality or idea as a person or creature. Nature is a representation of the natural world, isn’t it? So telling “nature designed it” is a prosopopoeia. It’s the same way how Albert Einstein used the word “god”.
How strange in the face of this, that many today reject the belief in the existence of the Creator. Perhaps this is due more to fashion and the desire to justify a materialistic attitude to life rather than real observation and comprehension of reality.
This is a manifestation of ignorance and religious biases to other religious system. If you are familiar with Buddhism and Jainism, you will notice that both religions don’t believe in a so-called “Creator god”, but both religions abhor materialism.
For example, according to Dr. K. Sri Dhammanada of the Buddha Dharma Education Association Inc., “Only in one sense can Buddhism be described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of an eternal omnipotent God or God-head who is the creator and ordainer of the world and who can miraculously save others. The word ‘atheism’, however, frequently carries a number of disparaging overtones or implications which are in no way applicable to the Buddha’s Teaching. Those who use the word ‘atheism’, often associate it with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing beyond this world of the senses and the slight happiness it can bestow. Buddhism advocates nothing of that sort.”
Something stranger still, and perhaps another reason for the trend to deny the Creator, are those who claim that a man, or men, who walked on the earth, breathed air, who had bodies and souls subject to the Laws of the Universe, are the Creator, or manifestations of the Self-Subsistent One.This is of course a complete contradiction in terms. Something cannot be the Creator and created at the same time, needing air, food and drink and being self-sufficient, being temporary and eternal!
If you are one of those who believe that a man such as Buddha, or Krishna, or Jesus is the Creator and Controller, then think again.Gosh...
Maybe this needs more of an FYI.
In religious sense (I’m not speaking as an atheist here but rather someone who understand some religious system) I think Ricky (unless this is another copy-pasted article eh Ricky?) here doesn’t have the slightest idea what he’s talking about. Well expect this if the intention of the author (or Ricky) is nothing but blatant religious propaganda.
Buddha (the awaked one) never claimed to be a creator or a god. In Buddhism, the Buddha was a unique human being who was self Enlightened. In the Anguttara Nikaya, He said: ‘I am indeed not a deva (deva means god- John the Atheist) nor any other form of divine being; neither am I an ordinary human being. Know ye that I am the Buddha, the Awakened One.’
Krishna is the 8th and most important avatar of Vishnu; incarnated as a handsome young man playing a flute. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to Arjuna. The Bhagavad-gétä described Krishna as the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth, the eternal, transcendental, original person, the unborn, and the greatest. (This of course is synonymous to a god)
Jesus is believed by most Christians as the ‘Son of God”. For them, long before the world was created, Jesus already existed. He was called “the Word”.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1: 1-4)
You can ask A b y for more details on this Jesus character @ Ricky.
We were created from a drop of despised fluid, in which was a microscopic sperm, which in turn fertilised a microscopic egg and we grew in our mother's womb in stages predetermined, over which we had no control. We came from our mother's womb, urinating and defecating, needing constant attention and care. Without food we will die, without air we will die ... and then such a one is God? I think the best word to use here is “formed” not “created”. Generate is more likely...You see @ Ricky to be created we must established raw materials. The word “created” is best-suited to man-made objects. Like “I created a masterpiece” or “I created a new car design”...eh enough of this grammatical technicalities.
Anyway, I would just like to comment to this Qur’anic based quote, the sperm cell doesn’t come from a “despised fluid”.
Indeed any intelligent person would recognise exactly how dependant life, the universe and everything is on its Creator. Again this is a false statement due to lack of insight on different theistic belief. So how can you claim that life is dependent to its Creator? In deism for example, after creating everything, the “Creator” just left and leave his creation on its natural mechanism.
Our dire need for His help makes itself plain in times of great distress. Imagine yourself in an aeroplane and you know it is going to crash...
Who do you turn to for help then ?
Or on a ship in the sea, thrown helplessly up and down by towering waves ...
There will have been a situation at one time or the other in your life when you called upon your Creator alone, forgetting everyone and everything else, hoping, trusting, wishing that the Being you know in your heart and soul that has power and control over all things would help you. The only One you know can save you! If you don’t believe in some type of a supernatural 911, you won’t call for its help @ Ricky. Humanists for example trust humanity more than some sort of an invisible support. In a personal level, then I was nearly hit by a train in Dapitan 4 years ago, the first thing that entered my mind is Rotten.com. not god’s hotline.
Oh by the way...I just delete the Qur’an quotes. Extracting verses to so-called “holy scriptures” isn’t really that convincing.
Until next time,
John the Atheist
